Are You Quiet About Your Faith?

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Comment by Amy Stark on October 5, 2008 at 8:44am

@Bruce-- I don't know if you are a TEDster or not, but Karen Armstrong (a former nun and author) was a TED Winner and given the opportunity to make a wish for Compassion, Religious Tolerance and a return the Golden Rule. This is 20 minutes well worth your time.

Comment by Bruce LaDuke on October 5, 2008 at 12:36am

Hi again Amy,

No, I'd never heard of Julian Huxley, but I'd agree with what you said he taught in that all religions have the same basic tenets. Here's a web page showing quotes of the 'Golden Rule' across various major world religions (there are many variants of this on the web): http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

I do agree that not everyone's heart is hard--absolutely!! What I'm saying is that a tender hearted person, who may be in some religion or may not be, is eventually led into spirituality. Yes, religious, cultural, philanthropic, and political movements are all rooted in the mind and ideas, but true spirituality transcends the mind and must be experienced as pure love, which is a different dimension or a different reality. Christianity calls this kind of love "Agape" love vs. 'Eros,' which is human love and says "God IS love" so to experience this kind of love is to experience God.

It's very easy to follow traditions, think things, believe things, or do works if you compare that to forsaking this physical and mental reality entirely (die to self) and entering into this spiritual dimension of love. That's a tough one and that's why most people settle into religious tenets and never experience it.

It's impossible to comprehend this spiritual dimension of love with the mind...if you try to do so you will end up back on a religious tenet.,,that's how religions are born. In my opinion, the way to this love is through meditation and worship. Generally speaking, Buddhists would meditate, but not worship, because they seek a higher, connected self, or an enlightened state and largely don't have a concept of God as Christians know it.

I believe that God has manifested in every epoch or age or era (not just this one) to bring this spiritual love 'experience' back to mankind. This is the reason why the golden rule shows up in all of the different religions. He came to bring this experience of love and in every epoch and in each case some received it and others turned this experience into a mental concept, creating the various religions we have today.

Comment by Amy Stark on October 4, 2008 at 7:26pm

@ Bruce--
"All religions have some rendition of these fundamental roots at their foundation, but it takes spirituality, not religion, to live this." Are you familiar with Julian Huxley's work, I mentioned it early on in the discussion?

"Religion is a degredation of spirituality that occurs over the years as spiritual hearts are hardened. Spiritual movements are started by spiritual teachers, but when these spiritual teachings fall on the ears of people with hardened hearts, they don't become spiritual, they become religious." Not everyone's heart is hard. I think it simply goes through too many filters like in a game of telephone, where the message never remains the same. All Spiritual movements, (and all philanthropic movements and all cultural paradigm shifts) began with an idea. At least one charismatic individual had an idea for a better way, and then early adopters evangelized about the idea because they were of like mind. This is how the Civil Rights Movement and Prohibition started, not to mention the U.S. and ALL religions.

I must admit I didn't follow the reasoning in the last paragraph and wonder if you could clarify the last sentence. "and by this act we spiritually die But to die is a hard thing...religion is much easier." Isn't religion hard? You must attend certain things, pay a certain amount of money, pray a certain way, abide by certain traditions, etc. And if you don't, the fear of burning in hell for eternity is always lurking just behind your shoulder. That sounds hard to me.

Comment by Cissi Sherlock on October 4, 2008 at 5:17pm

Your response reminded me of a response that I provided for my blog about "The Digital Ag..."

":Thank you so much for seeing the bigger picture, which is all that I ask. Challenging me is ok. All our views deserve a good looking at. My passion for an issue is just as important as the next persons. And alas, I am not the first person whose viewpoints have been challenged on Smalled Indiana!

The direction of my passion you so noted was only for my SI family. We are prone to riveting and challenging discussions! I love a forum where people challenge your ideas. It actually helps me to think things through. My thought process is that sometimes being on the other side, people can possibly see things that I don’t. They can se and present a different side to the story – a different viewpoint. The views and ideas of other help me to "do my homework". At that point I have to ask myself questions. “Am I being as open-minded as I can about other viewpoints?” “Am I presenting my position effectively?” “Can I see the validity in the viewpoint being presented by the other person?” “Does it clash with mine and why?” “Is there a middle ground?” “Have I done my homework?” If we all were not challenged when we had ideas, would we not thrive?"

And, you look at i , a good Christian believe that God gives you the wisdom, the knowledge AND the other tools needed to make these things possible.

Comment by Amy Stark on October 4, 2008 at 10:31am

@ Theresia--Thanks so much for caring. One of my favorite songs growing up in the UMC was, "They will know we are Christians by our Love." and it is obvious you and Mark share your love through caring. Much of what I wrote @ Mark above, touched on the points you raised. I reaffirm my suggestion not use the words, right and wrong, because even if you preface it with "in my opinion," it still implies a judgment on your part that unless they think the way you think, they are wrong. If you truly want to change someone's heart or way of thinking, starting out by implying they are wrong immediately puts them in a position of defending their position. Much in the same why I am doing right now =)

@ Bruce-- I will have to cogitate before replying to your post. I hope Michael Dukehart is still following this discussion, because my instincts tell me he would find your post interesting. I know I did =)

Comment by Amy Stark on October 4, 2008 at 10:04am

@Mark-- You typed "I continue to believe that you are uncomfortable sharing your faith due to a lack of faith." I am uncomfortable sharing my faith because I don't want to be viewed as an evangelist, which is very different from your meaning. I will boldly state I have a lack of faith in written sacred texts, but that is different from lack of faith. Our species has such limited capacity to recall anything, and we are incredibly inept at understanding and translating original word meanings, especially written hundreds of years ago. One tiny misinterpretation can mean the difference between 70 Virgins and 70 Grapes.

Last year I learned that the original meaning of the word "competition" was: To Strive TOGETHER for the betterment of ALL. That is why the original Olympiads practiced together before they raced in the actual games. The fastest one set a record that others tried to beat-- which improved ALL the Olympiad's times (except of course for the initial leader). During the 16 or 1700s the French began using the word competition more negatively to portray a sense of winners and losers (leave it to the French, eh?)

In good faith, you are challenging me to read the New Testament, but when I PERSONALLY read the Good News, passages like the one below "shut me down" mentally because they really anger me:

1 Corinthians 11--- "6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. 7 For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man."

Thankfully, Christians moved beyond this arcane practice, but the tradition is going strong in certain Arab countries, and viewing females as inferior is at the heart of a tremendous amount of violence. I feel certain that Paul would be appalled (pardon the pun) that his words could be misconstrued to encourage bloodshed, but that is precisely what it did. Mohamed knew the Bible well and based a great deal of the Koran on its teachings. Just as the original Christian Church leaders used much of the Torah.

Here is my point, Mark. By encouraging me to read the Bible every day, it has the opposite effect on me that you wish it to have. Please don't misunderstand me here... I am thrilled that it works for you, but I need a different tack to strengthen my faith. Attending The Garden strengthens my faith, witnessing my daughter being compassionate strengthens my faith, viewing a three minute video entitled "How to Kill an American" strengthens my faith, but reading the Bible religiously as you propose, will not strengthen my faith. I suppose this is the reason I do not evangelize... I am not smart enough to suggest something guaranteed to work for everyone. I hope this makes sense, Mark.

Comment by Bruce LaDuke on October 3, 2008 at 7:05pm

Romans 14 is a Bible chapter that pretty much annihilates sectarian thinking. Sectarianism is the force at work that divides and causes people and groups to take sides. This kind of thinking is not limited to Christianity...it thrives in other faiths as well, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc.

People can share their faith with sectarian intent and they may as well not have shared it. At the same time, they might hide their faith because of sectarian forces at work within their religions.

If you ask yourself what brings people together, the answer is love (of God, others, self). What breaks them apart into sects is equally simple...not loving (of God, others, self). All religions have some rendition of these fundamental roots at their foundation, but it takes spirituality, not religion, to live this.

Religion is a degredation of spirituality that occurs over the years as spiritual hearts are hardened. Spiritual movements are started by spiritual teachers, but when these spiritual teachings fall on the ears of people with hardened hearts, they don't become spiritual, they become religious.

But please don't get me wrong here, any religious person can be a spiritual person...it just never automatically follows that because a person is religious, that person is also spiritual. Religion is not the source of spirituality. Religion is founded on the knowledge of good and evil and spirituality is founded on love.

Very generally speaking, the eastern view achieves love by freeing ones self from the constraints of the mind and seeing that the 'real person' (the soul) is separate from mind. I personally believe this is a good thing, but one can do this and increase consciousness of the soul, but still not be spiritual. Some eastern teachers aspire to a final 'unwritten' stage of enlightenment that is passed on by verbal tradition, but from what I've seen it's treated like a secret end point, and should instead be the starting point.

The western view has a strong concept of God, but the concept of sin inappropriately understood turns people squarely into a life based on the knowledge of good and evil, or religion. This causes them to judge and judgment is the force that creates sects.

As I see it, true spirituality is giving of the entire soul, consciousness, person, self (or whatever word is used to mean the real person) to love (of God, others, self)...and God is love...and this makes us all one...and this realm is outside of this reality, our minds, and our souls...and we lose ourselves in this love. "That they may be one as we are one." (John 17)...and by this act we spiritually die But to die is a hard thing...religion is much easier.

Comment by Theresia Whitfield on October 3, 2008 at 5:37pm

Amy - I would have to agree with Mark's comments above and encourage you to let go of the desire to "back up what you say/type." That isn't going to be necessary - at least for me. I'd rather know that you're digging into the Word of God because you want to know what God has to say - and you genuinely want to hear from Him - rather than trying to prove yourself right or wrong to someone else (or even yourself!). I truly do care, Amy. Whether you're able or interested in responding is totally fine by me. But know that you can always give me a call or shoot me a message/email if you're unclear about something or if you have questions. God loves you. That's the most important thing you should remember in all of this. You have beautifully shared from your heart, and I so appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable in such a public setting.

Enjoy your weekend.

Comment by Cissi Sherlock on October 3, 2008 at 12:13pm

DaySpring ins an inspriations e-card company that you can send free cards from or get an account have access to many book, cards, posters, postcards and many things of the inspirational nature. Weddings, births, passing, needing a friend, you are my friend, God Love You, I Love You, whatever one needs inspiration for, you can find an e-card on DaySpring.

Comment by Amy Stark on October 3, 2008 at 9:32am

@ Theresia and Mark-- When I reflect on this three day discussion, I am deeply moved by the passion behind some of your posts, and the sense of caring from everyone. I feel blessed to have started this conversation, and I am glad you jumped in. I'm also disappointed in myself because I am not the best writer, and occasionally my thoughts aren't clear and can be misinterpreted. I have a full day ahead (Friday, Oct. 3) so I must focus on other things, but I will respond to both of your posts later today, or most likely tomorrow.

I will quickly tell you I spent over an hour last night looking through Paul's letters for the passage about divorce. I found a couple of passages where Paul talks about widows marrying again--it's ok if you're young, but if you are an older widow, you should never re-marry. My friend Tim called last night and told me he remembered the conversation we had about the divorce passage, but he couldn't recall the exact verse or Letter, either. I take pride in being able to back up what I type or say, so I will continue to search.

@ Cissi... I went to dayspring, but I don't have time at the moment to really dig-- can you tell me a little bit about it?

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