Will We Learn Our Lessons Before We Kill Ourselves?

Comment

Comment by Ben McCann on February 19, 2008 at 10:26am

Wow

Thank you Ken for your response and starting this conversation to begin with. Thank you Bruce for your input as well. Thank you for allowing me to express and learn in this dialogue.

It is said that "as iron sharpens iron, so does on man sharpen another"

That is from the Bible and I may not have it word for word correctly but what I get from that is this.

When Iron Sharpens Iron... sparks fly.

But because of the strength in each other, the imperfections and the things that stick out get ground and cut off so that which remains is sharper and better than before. The heat and the sparks from the friction is nescessary if the end result is a better peice of IRON.

Thank you again gentlemen for being bold enough to engage and let the sparks fly in an effort to have a more refined us.

BE MORE, SERVE MORE

Comment by Ken Zweigel on February 19, 2008 at 2:27am

I am overwhelmed and humbled by this conversation. I am not sure what is left to be said other than I obviously can hold no grudges because I too have made similar mistakes - many of them - and I have received quite an education from this dialogue, the twists and turns of which have staggered me at times.

What impresses me is the high degree of knowledge and self-expression, the willingness of the participants to both teach and learn, and the potential power of blogging to cause positive change and make a difference in people's lives.

This exchange of ideas has been a unique and memorable experience. Thank you Ben and Bruce for reading my thoughts and for sharing yours. I feel that together we have all made a little progress toward a better future in Smaller Indiana.

Comment by Ben McCann on February 18, 2008 at 10:12pm

Good stuff, you know the string of conversations on this page were my very first attempts at blogging, I had never done it before and am new to the dynamics of how it works, your comments above have given me some valuable insight into how to engage in dialogue. Moreover, my ADD/ADHD (undiagnosed, but symptoms are very present) contributes to my own inability to Listen and Communicate effectively which drives people away sometimes or shuts them down. When a point sticks out in a conversation that grabs my attention... I focus on it and inadvertantly discontinue listening. I then analyze the points that I want to and fail to "read" into what the other person is trying to ultimately communicate.

When you are talking about people and paths, a wonderful book and excellent read is a classic called "pilgrim's progress". I do better when I listen to books on CD, this is one of them that I would never get through if it wasn't on CD.

Thanks for your insight, you have been very helpful to me to becoming a better person all around.

Comment by Ben McCann on February 17, 2008 at 3:05pm

Bruce,

Thanks for your response, I look forward to hearing what Ken has to say.

I am wondering what the purpose of his original blog was for. I agreed with 90% of what he said... at which point I then Identified where I disagreed and stated my position on the point to further identify how I see the world. Ken's disgust at violence and evil are shared by all of us, yet in all of us are the very same ingredients to perpetrate such evils. If we fail to recognize that, then we fool ourselves if we think we can solve the problems without identifying right and wrong, not only moral guides but where they come from... so far it seems that too many people are moral relativists who state "What is right for me may not be what is right for you". Therefore anyone who disagrees with even 1% are labled as Judgmental, right wing, closeminded, offensive bigots. If someone can start a blog, state thier position, open it up to thought, and then reject and attack those who support their efforts and viewpoints even 90% of the time, then what hope do we have for those who are diometrically opposed? I agree with 97.23% of what you wrote Bruce, there are points of clarity or contention that I would like to bring up, but the foundation of conversation has to be established.

Because of my passion in what I have found to be truth, and my zeal to honestly share it with someone whom I believed to be open to an egaging disucussion. I inadvertantly pushed them away as evident by the lack of response to the points that I actually raised in my posts. Moreover, instead of recognizing the opportunity to engage in conversation... I beleive the following comments were directed at me ... "but I am also depressed by the flip side of the coin, which is the apparent need of some individuals to use this platform not as a forum for reasonable discussion but as a bully pulpit from which to proselytize their uncomproming and hurtful beliefs.

Here is my questions to that statement:
1. Please identify where in my writings I was unreasonable. what does reasonable mean?
2. where exactly did my bully pulpit take place? is there a double standard where I am forced to accept Darwin and his flawed research as proven by 90% of todays secular scientists... but I am unable to scientifically show my point of view for the sake of clarification?
3. Yes I did go overboard with proselytizing, but where did it get to the point of uncompromising and hurtful? What did I say that was hurtful?

I have read and reread Ken's comments and your comments and even my own and I just cant find where I made a statement that was hurtful. If I did, was it hurtful because of truth or hurtful because it was not true?

It was said by Ghandi when he looked fevershly into the claims of Christianity and Christ. He said "I love your Christ, it is his followers that I have a problem with"

Well stated. Because most "Christians" (term used very loosely) don't understand their true identity in who the Bible, God, and Christ has said that they are, they walk around wounding people, offending people (not in a good way). setting bad examples. Someone said that you have heard there are 4 Gospel Testimonies... Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John... But I tell you there are 5 Gospel testimonies... Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, and Yours... most people dont read the first 4. As I challenge myself and my friends who have laid claim to this "Christian" identity... The questions need to be answered. Who are we, Why are we here?

Because of my own search for truth, I believe that I have found the answers and the source of the answers, even if Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are not around... I still have a powerful personal testimony of what a revelation knowlege of who God is, Who was Christ, what does it mean, and what impact has this knowlege had on the direction of my life and those around me.

I tell you quite frankly, had it not been for Jesus... I would probably have murdered some people... be in a prison cell or dead right now as a result of the downward spiral that my life started to lead. But because of Jesus Christ and his Word the Bible, I have found meaning in life, purpose, I have embraced it and now 10 years later I am living a life of success, prosperity, impact.

I am willing to engage with someone who "preaches" darwinism, and allow them to preach, as long as I am able to point out the flaws in it. If you have read Darwin, his original title of "Origin of a Species" was shortened from that of a Racist Document trying to show the supremacy of the White Race. Talk about intolerant... Later in his life he lamented what he wrote and asked for forigiveness because of what he had started was an uprising (rebellion) agains the establishment... His personal quest was steeped in rebellion more than search for truth, and as he got older in his last days voiced regrets for this.

James puts it this way as he points out one of my flaws in James 1:26-27: 26Do any of you think you are religious? If you do not control your tongue, your religion is worthless and you deceive yourself. (ouch... that's me, that hurts... he's right)

27What God the Father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world.

(basically, put your money and your actions where your mouth is. quit talking about the pain and suffering inthe world and do something about it.)

Unless I hear a response from Ken to his engagement, I will not post again, I can only hope that words that I have written and spoken were received with the Love and Compassion that they wer e written... I am not a master of the written language... I barely graduated high school because of English. Sometimes my typed words don't get recieved with the tone and Love that they were written. I am contiuning to rise to the challenge that James gave me and I am going to get back to helping widows and orphans throught a multi cultural multidenominational ministry that was created to be just that --- it is said that we are the body of Christ, we are his hands and feet. We are to be the extension of him here on this earth. When his body parts fail to function to their intended capacity, we end up with more pain, suffering, and anguish then is nescessary. For that I put blame on the Pastors, Teachers, and Church folk for sitting around on their blessed assurance and doing nothing. They become pew potatoes that sit around and grow eyes and watch everything... They consume all to good sermons and don't allow any of it to change they way they live... they become spiritually constipated.

My heart goes out to you gentlemen if you have ever been hurt by anyone in the "Church". and i apologize on their behalf for not speaking the truth in love.

Here is the Bibles definition of what True Love is since we are just finishing our Valentines Day:

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

If someone has the true fruits of the spirit of God, they will look like this as described in Galatians 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law

WOW if I read these 2 scirptures and just apply them to my life and teach them to my children... then that would be great... If I am able to replace the word Love with my name in 1 Cor 13... then I have achieved what God has called for me.

If you want to boil the entire Bible down into 4 words it would read like this.

LOVE GOD, LOVE PEOPLE.

using 1 Cor. definition of Love... If people just did that, we would eliminate most of the pain, suffering, death anger etc...

What do you gentlemen think?

Comment by Ben McCann on February 17, 2008 at 10:25am

Yes,

Bruce and Ken, Very well stated posts. After reading your posts, I would like to sincerely apologize for going way overboard with my first 2 posts. Before I "dialogue" with you, I would like to express to you why I did what I did, not an excuse, but an explanation so that you can see where I am coming from without judgement. My Brother in Law was murdered at 17 just before his 18th birthday, shot 16 times with an uzzi. 2 months later his daughter, my niece was born (never knowing her father, only his memory and what others said about him) My teenage sister who had all the talent in the world to be a world class athelete had made decisions that would alter her life and everyone around her forever, drugs, alcohol, abuse, 2 more illegitate children before the age of 20 ... the downward spiral seemed never ending.

3 years later, My Pastor tried to Rape my other sister 2 weeks before she left for the army... she was best friends with his daughter. 7 months later 9/11 happened. After 4 years she returned from the army (and all that is entailed in seeing the world during wartime in that environment) to formally adopt and raise her 2 neices and 1 nephew because the state was ready to send them to foster care because of the neglect of my other sister and rightfully so. She is in School Full time and teaches pre-schoolers at a local elementary school. I could go on about the "stuff" that has happened to me, my family, etc... but I will digress, all they would be for most people are excuses to use for not living up to the potential within me to be a part of solutions and changing the world for the better. Most of my friends from High School days are either dead or in jail or their lives are so messed up because of the life choices they made. I got lucky, I ended up better than I deserve.

I was the oldest of 5 kids who were all a year apart, and because my mother was bi-polar... I basically raised my siblings as the oldest. She was there physically but not mentally. My father worked a lot in solving the environmental concerns in Bloomington and is still employed to that effort. As a raised Catholic, turned atheist in college, his major in science was to disprove all the "traditionalist" things that were meaningless and imposed upon him during his upbringing. with an honest search for truth he was determined to use science to disprove the bible and religeons. As a true sceintist... He determined to use scientific method and examine the evidence with bias towards disproving the Bible, however his mind was also open to other faiths and was determined to explore their validity... among them Hinduism, buddism, islam, christianity, judaism, and his catholic roots. My father is a thinker with a scientific mind and I am as well, although I tend to lean towards the creative side.

without going into other details... I have given more thought to the questions posed about who are we, why are we here, why is there all these problems, violence, suffering, what is the solution that makes the best sense... I too had to take a journey and search for truth with an honest and open mind to all that was out there...and I have also given thought to your comments above on how to dialogue on this and I appreciate your setting the ground rules and accept the seemingly open ivitation to engage.

Before I move on, I would like to again apologize to Ken for my unsolicited preaching, my inability to engage in civil discourse and give-and-take conversations designed to reach solutions to our problems based on understanding and compromise. I also apologize for using this platform not as a forum for reasonable discussion but as a bully pulpit from which to proselytize my uncompromizing and hurtful beliefs. Because I never gave opportunity for diologue, I fear that I will not get the chance with Ken unless he is able and willing to forgive me. so as you can see, my beliefs are biased, but unintentionally hurtful. The only reason they are biased is because it took a path of search for truth to get there. I am a discriminate thinker and do not give credibility to just any thought. Most of what is said from arguements that people take on all sided of the fence are logically flawed and because of my attention to detail nature, I cannot move forward until the flaws are exposed and dealt with in a logical truthful way.

So without excuse, and before I engage further in dialogue with you and others who choose to join. I will ask for your forgiveness for my sins against you Ken and Bruce, will you forgive me?

IF YES then I agree to the rules of engagement as outlined by Bruce:..............................
Coming to this table of dialogue is going to require personal sacrifice and a change in our respective world views, regardless of what our current value system is. In a nutshell, the Modernists can't just think about themselves any more, Traditionalists can't be exclusive any more, and Cultural Creatives can't live on islands any more.

There is a simple rule that will help guide us into fruitful dialogue. We need to be careful to avoid 'either/or' conversations and instead have 'and/both' conversations.

Everyone has something to contribute and we all breathe the same air. We need to all learn to see the value in every perspective. The real goal here is to create solutions that are good for society as a whole while balancing various interests. We're all going to have to give a lot to achieve that kind of balance. And the way things are going in the U.S., this approach is going to rock each of our respective world views and it will feel more like we're giving blood than simply changing how we think.

...................

Giving Blood involves pain, and require gaining a level of openness and transparency on all sides to build TRUST of both competance and character. Only then can we move to the level of committment to the cause: solving the problems of the world: and only with the agreed level of committment to the rules of engagement and to each other will we be able to hold each other Accountable for our words and actions. Only then will our goals for dialogue, problem solving, discussion, converstaion be achieved. I am not going to be so open minded that my brains fall out, but I know that I am open minded enough to follow the ground rules. All I ask is that as I look at myself ... recognize the things in me that are detestable and flawed and begin to remove them, that you do the same... Look at your own writings and ask yourself this question: Am I being close minded to the views of others, am I willing to look within myself to remove the things that are not good, am i willing to keep an open mind and truly seek to understand things from other peoples perspective? I contend that none of us have up until this point, Bruce would be the one that is the closest. Let's try not to put each other in a Box and label them as Modernist, Traditionalist, or Cultural Creatives... I don't fit any one of these molds, their are characteristics in me that fit all three, I am confident that the same is true for everyone else. If you and I can agree that we do have biases, but look to see the other sides points of truth and understanding of the evidence and facts, and If we can agree to this as well, then I am game, what do you say?

P.S. I barely graduated high school because my grades were so low... the only reason i didn't drop out was because of girls and sports. My ADD / ADHD was never diagnosed but I am sure that it was a factor. So you 2 gentlemen have the more educated and experienced learning behind you and I hope to learn from you as my thirst for knowlege and truth is never quenched. If conflict does arise in conversation, that is not nescessarily bad if we can then commit to resolving the conflict in an honorable way. I teach my 3 children to always treat others with Honor: Honor is a code that is defined as 3 things.

1. Treating everyone as special
2. Doing more than what is expected
3 Having a good attitude.

Just think, If my kids get this, and if they can influence other kids around them to learn to Honor their parents, those in authority, their teachers, friends, and bosses and coworkers... then I have done my part in bringing solutions to the world. It is not honor unless it posseses all 3 points simultaneously. So what do you say about having and honorable engaging conversation that our kids could look up to?

Comment by Ken Zweigel on February 17, 2008 at 2:58am

I agree with you, Bruce, that our inability to engage in civil discourse and give-and-take conversations designed to reach solutions to our problems based on understanding and compromise - not unsolicitated preaching under the threat of eternal damnation or bullying people into political submission - is one of our main problems as a multi-cultural socity with many belief systems.

Agreeing to disagree about our problems is not the answer either, because then we just end up where we began - on separate sides of the fence - which is what prevents us us from accomplishing anything for the common good.

Meanwhile, the quality of the education we pass along to our children continually diminishes, which leads to a lack of opportunity, which leads to a lack of hope, which leads to despair, which leads to anger without recourse, which inevitably leads to violence, which, with ever-increasing frequency, leads to the mass execution of students who are trying to gain an education so they can lead a better life and make a better world.

It is a vicious cycle that is tearing down our once-great nation that was founded by some of the wisest men humanity has offered up. We argue about the size of our government and the amount of our taxes while the ship our founding fathers built slowly sinks into the sea of lost empires.

Only when we finance our eduction systems to the extent that we finance our entertainment industries will be able to reverse the downward spiral of our nation.

We are entertaining ourselves into ignorantly blissful oblivian while this century's emerging nations are putting their collective noses to the educational grindstone in preparation for the new world order, which does not have the USA at the top of the heap.

Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts and for your comments in response. I'm very impressed with the level of some of the thinking and ideas on Smaller Indiana, but I am also depressed by the flip side of the coin, which is the apparent need of some individuals to use this platform not as a forum for reasonable discussion but as a bully pulpit from which to proselytize their uncomproming and hurtful beliefs.

Comment by Ben McCann on February 16, 2008 at 2:13pm

WHY IS THERE DEATH AND SUFFERING?
by Ken Ham and Dr Jonathan Sarfati
Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/media/radio/deathandsuffering.pdf

Death and suffering is everywhere!
‘Earthquake Claims 10,000 in India.’ ‘Thousands Perish in Bangladesh’s Flood.’
Tragedy is constantly in the news, including large-scale, ‘senseless’ disasters that snuff out the lives of thousands, such as the terrorist attacks on New York’s World Trade Center. Nor is tragedy confi ned to today—it wasn’t too long ago that an evil regime wiped out 6 million Jews and many others. In addition to the headline events, each of us suffers pain at one time or another—illness, headaches, accidents and death.
It’s not surprising, when the burdens become too great, that people cry out to God in anguish, ‘Why don’t you do anything? Don’t you care?’

How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
As the shock of each traumatic event subsides, people begin asking why such things occur. Reading about past wars or visiting memorials like the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., inevitably raises the same question, ‘How can there be a loving God controlling the universe in the light of such death and suffering?’
The pervasiveness of suffering is possibly the most effective tool that atheists use to attack the Bible’s picture of a ‘loving God.’ Atheists make what appears to be a reasonable complaint: ‘If God is loving and all-powerful, then why doesn’t He use His power to stop the evil, suffering, pain and death?’

Multitudes have rejected God because of suffering!
Sadly, most people—even Christians—have no ready answer to the question of death and suffering in the world.
Believing that the world is millions or billions of years old, they have a diffi cult time explaining the purpose behind
the apparent cruelty that they see.

Charles Darwin rejected Christianity after the death of his daughter. ‘Annie’s cruel death destroyed Charles’s tatters of beliefs in a moral, just universe. Later he would say that this period chimed the fi nal death-knell for his Christianity,’ says a recent biography of Charles Darwin. ‘… Charles now took his stand as an unbeliever.’1
Darwin is only one of thousands of famous people who have struggled with this issue, trying to reconcile belief in God with the death and suffering he observed all around, that he believed had gone on for millions of years. Darwin’s struggle came to a climax with the death of his daughter Annie.2 When Charles Darwin wrote his landmark book On the Origin of Species, he was in essence writing a history of suffering and death. In the conclusion of the chapter entitled On The Imperfections Of The Geological Record, Darwin said the modern world has arisen ‘from the war of nature, from famine and death.’3 Based on his evolutionary perspective, Darwin considered death to be a permanent part of the world.

The billionaire Ted Turner, a famous media mogul, says he lost his faith after his sister died. The New York Times ran a sobering article, saying, ‘Turner is a strident nonbeliever, having lost his faith after his sister … died of a painful disease. … “I was taught that God was love and God was powerful,” Turner said, “And I couldn’t understand how someone so innocent should be made or allowed to suffer so.” ’4
A famous evangelist rejected Christianity, in part because of the suffering he saw. Former well-known evangelist, the late Charles Templeton, published Farewell to God in 1996,5,6 describing his slide into unbelief and his rejection of Christianity. Once listed among those ‘best used of God’ by the National Association of Evangelicals,7 Templeton listed several ‘reasons for rejecting the Christian faith.’ For instance:

- Geneticists say it is ‘nonsense’ to believe that sin is the ‘reason for all the crime, poverty, suffering, and general wickedness 2 in the world.’8

-The ‘grim and inescapable reality’ is that ‘all life is predicated on death. Every carnivorous creature must kill and devour another creature. It has no option.’9

Templeton, like Charles Darwin, had a big problem understanding how to reconcile an Earth full of death, disease and suffering with the loving God of the Bible. Templeton stated: ‘Why does God’s grand design require creatures with teeth designed to crush spines or rend flesh, claws fashioned to seize and tear, venom to paralyze, mouths to suck blood, coils to constrict and smother—even expandable jaws so that prey may
be swallowed whole and alive? … Nature is in Tennyson’s vivid phrase, “red [with blood] in tooth and claw,” and life is a carnival of blood.’10

Templeton then concludes: ‘How could a loving and omnipotent God create such horrors as we have been contemplating?’ 11

Templeton is not the first person to talk like this. When told that there is a God of love who made the world, embittered people often reply: ‘I don’t see any God of love. All I see are children suffering and dying. I see people killing and stealing.

Disease and death are everywhere. Nature is “red in tooth and claw.” It’s a horrible world. I don’t see your God of love. If your God does exist, He must be a sadistic ogre.’

Does an atheist really have a case?
It’s often useful to ask a questioner to justify the validity of his question under his own belief system. For an atheist to complain that the Christian God is ‘evil,’ he must provide a standard of good and evil by which to judge Him.

But if we are simply evolved pond scum, as a consistent atheist must believe, where can we fi nd an objective standard of right and wrong? Our ideas of right and wrong, under this system, are merely outcomes of some chemical processes that occur in the
brain, which happened to confer survival advantage on our alleged ape-like ancestors. But the notions in Hitler’s brain obeyed the same chemical laws as those in Mother Teresa’s, so on what grounds are the latter’s actions ‘better’ than the former’s? Also, why should the terrorist attack slaying thousands of people in New York be more terrible than a frog killing thousands of flies?

A Christian, however, believes there is an objective standard of morality that rises above individual humans, because it is set by an objective and transcendent moral Lawgiver who is our Creator. An atheist’s argument against God because of objective evil inadvertently concedes the very point he is trying to argue against!

Such questions about God stem from a wrong view of history Belief in evolution and/or millions of years of history necessitates that death has been a part of history since life first appeared on this planet. If you believe that the fossil layers (containing billions of dead things) represent the history of life over millions of years, it’s a very ugly record—full of death, disease and suffering.

‘Time and death.’ The late evolutionary scientist Carl Sagan described Darwin’s view of death well: ‘The secrets of evolution are time and death.’12 This sums up the most widely accepted history of death in this world. According to this view,
(1) death, suffering and disease over millions of years led up to man’s emergence;
(2) death, suffering and disease exist in this present world; and
(3) death, suffering and disease will continue into the unknown future. Death is a
permanent part of history, and death is our ally in the ‘creation’ of life. 3

Implications about suffering, if you accept this view of history. If one believes in millions of years, then this world has always been a deadly place. The question that we naturally ask is ‘Who caused the cancer, disease and violence represented in the fossil record?’ Christians who believe in millions of years of history have a serious problem. The Bible
plainly says that God is the Creator, and He called everything that He had made—before, leading up to, and including Adam and Eve, but before their Fall—‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31).

This situation is represented in the following:
As soon as Christians allow for death, suffering and disease before Adam’s sin (which they automatically must if they believe in millions of years), then they’ve raised a serious question about their Gospel message. What, then, has sin done to the world? According to Christian teaching, death is the penalty for sin (Romans 3:23)—and this fact is the
foundation of the Gospel! Moreover, how can all things be ‘restored’ to a state with no death, pain or tears in the future (Revelation 21:4) if there never was a time free of death and suffering? The whole message of the Gospel falls apart if you have this view of history. It also would mean that God is to blame for death.

The Bible gives the right view of history—and the right view of God!
Fortunately, God has given us a different account of the history of death, recorded in His Word—the Bible. This historical document connects to real issues of life, and it fully explains why horrible things happen. In fact, God’s Word has much to say about death.
‘Sin and death.’ This phrase sums up the true history of death, as recorded in Genesis, the fi rst book of the Bible. God originally created a perfect world, described by God as ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31). People and animals ate plants, not other animals (Genesis 1:29- 30). There was no violence or pain in this ‘very good’ world.

But this sinless world was marred by the rebellion of the first man, Adam.
His sin brought an intruder into the world—death. God had to judge sin with death, as He warned Adam He would (Genesis 2:17, cf. 3:19). Indeed, God apparently caused the first death in the world—an animal was slain to make clothing for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). As a result of God’s judgment on the world, God has given us a taste of life without Him—a world that is running down—a world full of death and suffering. As Romans 8:22 says, ‘the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs’—because God Himself subjected the creation to processes of decay (v. 20).

Implications about suffering, if you accept this view of history. How can we find a God of love amidst the groaning of this world? By understanding the Genesis account of the Fall, we know that we are looking at a fallen, cursed world. From the Bible’s perspective of history, death is an enemy, not an ally. In 1 Corinthians 15:26, the Apostle Paul describes death as the ‘last enemy.’ Death was not a part of God’s original creation, which truly was ‘very good.’ Based on a straightforward reading of the Genesis account, history can be represented by the diagram in the PDF.

The wrong view!
Death and suffering is the penalty for sin. When Adam rebelled against God, in effect he was saying that he wanted life without God. He wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God. Now the Bible tells us that Adam was the head of the human race, representing each one of us, who are his descendants. Paul says in Romans 5:12–19 that
we sin ‘in Adam,’ after the likeness of Adam. In other words, we have the same problem Adam had. When Adam rebelled against God, all human beings, represented by Adam, effectively said that they wanted life without God.

God had to judge Adam’s sin with death. He had already warned Adam that
if he sinned, he would ‘surely die.’ After Adam’s Fall, he and all his descendants
forfeited the right to live. After all, God is the author of life. Death is the
natural penalty of choosing life without God, the giver of life. Also, because the
Lord is holy and just, there had to be a penalty for rebellion.

The Bible makes it clear that death is the penalty for our sin, not just the sin
of Adam. If you accept the Bible’s account of history, then our sins—not just
the sins of ‘the other guy’—are responsible for all the death and suffering in
the world! In other words, it is really our fault that the world is the way it is.
No-one is really ‘innocent.’ God has removed His sustaining power—temporarily. At the same time that God judged sin with death, He withdrew some of His sustaining power. Romans 8:22 tells us that the whole of creation is groaning and travailing in pain.
Everything is running down because of sin. God has given us a taste of life without Him—a world full of violence, death, suffering and disease. If God withdrew all of His sustaining power, the creation would cease to exist. Colossians 1:16–17 tells us that all things are held together, right now, by the power of the Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, in one sense He is not holding it together perfectly, as He is deliberately letting things fall apart to give us a taste of what life is like without God. In other words, God is allowing us to experience what we wanted—life without God (cf. Romans 1:18–32).
In the Old Testament, we get a glimpse of what the world is like when God upholds things one-hundred percent. In Deuteronomy 29:5 and Nehemiah 9:21, we are told that the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years, and yet their clothes didn’t wear out, their shoes didn’t wear out and their feet didn’t swell. Obviously God miraculously upheld their clothing, shoes and feet so that they would not wear out or fall apart as the rest of the creation is doing. One can only imagine what the world would be like if God upheld every detail of it like this.

The book of Daniel, chapter 3, gives us another glimpse, when we read about Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego walking into an intensely blazing furnace yet coming out without even the smell of smoke on their clothes. When the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of the universe, upheld their bodies and clothing in the midst of fi re (v. 25), nothing could
be hurt or destroyed.

These examples help us understand a little of what it would be like if God upheld every aspect of the creation—nothing would fall apart. At present, we are living in a universe where things are decaying. Around us we see death, suffering and disease—all as a result of God’s judgment against sin and His withdrawal of some of His sustaining power to give us what we asked for—a taste of life without God. Thus, looking through ‘Biblical lenses,’ we see our sin in Adam as the ‘big-picture’ perspective on tragic events, such as the actions of terrorists. Of course, such specific evil acts were also a result of the individual sin of the terrorists. The suffering caused by the earthquake in India, by contrast, cannot be blamed on any individual’s sin today, but is still
the consequence of sin in general (more on this below).

In contrast to the view that death and suffering have continued for millions of years, this Biblical view of history has a wonderful implication for the future. The world will one day be restored (Acts 3:21) to a state in which, once again, there will be no violence and death. According to Isaiah 11:6–9, wolves and lambs, leopards and goats, lions and calves, and snakes and children, will dwell together peacefully. Clearly, this future state reflects the paradise that was once lost, not some imaginary land that never existed.

All right, so Adam’s fall explains sorrow in general, but what about specific cases of ‘senseless suffering’? The Bible teaches that suffering is part of the ‘big picture’ involving sin, but individual cases of suffering are not always correlated with particular sins of individuals. God allowed the suffering of righteous Job. A man named Job, who was the most righteous man on Earth at his time, suffered intensely—losing all his children, servants and possessions in a single day; then he was struck by a painful illness. The Lord never told Job the specific reasons for his suffering, but God lets every reader of the book of Job witness some extraordinary ‘behind-the-scenes’ events in Heaven, which Job never saw. The Lord had reasons for allowing Job’s suffering, but He never told Job these reasons, and He demanded that Job not question the decisions of his Maker.

Jesus was asked why a man was born blind. When Jesus and His disciples passed by a blind man, His disciples asked Him whether the man’s blindness from birth was due to his own sin or the sin of his parents. Jesus explained that neither was the case. The man was born blind so that God could demonstrate His power (when Jesus healed
him, John 9:1-7). Jesus discussed why eighteen Jews died tragically when the tower of Siloam collapsed. Jesus said something that is directly applicable to modern tragedies, such as the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in the
United States on September 11, 2001. Luke 13:4 records His words: ‘Those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were sinners above all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no!’ Suffering in our lives is not always related to our personal sin.

Note, however, that Jesus went on to say that ‘unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.’ Though this may have been referring to perishing physically in the coming downfall of Jerusalem, the bottom line is that no-one is innocent. All of us are sinners and therefore condemned to die. Thousands of people died in the World Trade Center catastrophe, but the hundreds of millions of people who saw and heard about this event will also die one day—in fact, thousands of them are dying every day—because all humans have been given the death penalty because of sin.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus is a key to understanding suffering. The Bible is never embarrassed to talk about the question of suffering. God’s past judgments have included almost every type of suffering imaginable, and He repeatedly asserts His absolute power and authority over men’s lives. Yet in one of Christ’s most memorable teachings (Luke 16:19–31), the Son of God gives the key to understanding the apparent injustices of this world.

A wicked rich man lived in splendor, while a faithful beggar named Lazarus sat at the rich man’s gate, covered with sores and eating table scraps. But the story does not end here. There is an eternal world to come, where God will make all things right. The hope of a resurrection is the key to understanding our suffering.13 Once, the twentieth-century atheistic philosopher Bertrand Russell claimed that no-one could sit by the bedside of a child with a terminal disease and believe in a loving God. A minister who actually had experience with dying children (unlike Russell who never got his own hands dirty with such practical things) challenged Russell to explain what he could offer such
a child. An atheist could only say, ‘Sorry, chap, you’ve had your chips, and that’s the end of everything for you.’ But the Christian has hope that this life is not the end.
The Apostle Paul found reasons to ‘glory in my infirmities.’ Paul’s ‘résumé of suffering’ included torture, beatings, imprisonment, stoning, shipwreck, robbery, infirmities, exhaustion, hunger, thirst, and cold. His letters show that Christ’s Resurrection was the key to his making sense of his suffering. Without the Resurrection, ‘then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain, … [and] we are of all men most miserable’ (1Corinthians 15:14, 19).

Though sometimes we will never see in this life the reasons for some suffering, Paul’s letters contain practical reasons for the suffering of God’s children, even when they have done nothing wrong. For instance:
1. Suffering can ‘perfect’ us, or make us mature in the image of Christ. (Job 23:10, Hebrews 5:8–9).
2. Suffering can help some to come to know Christ.
3. Suffering can make us more able to comfort others who suffer.

Is God doing anything about death and suffering?
People who accuse God of sitting back and doing nothing are missing a vital truth. In reality, God has already done everything you would want a loving God to do—and infinitely more!

The Son of God became a man and endured both suffering and a horrible death on man’s behalf. Adam’s sin left mankind in a terrible predicament. Even though our bodies die, we are made in the image of God, and thus we have souls that are immortal. Our conscious being is going to live forever. Unless God intervened, Adam’s sin meant that we would spend an eternity of suffering and separation from Him.

The only way for us to restore our life with God is if we are able to come to Him with the penalty paid for our sin. Leviticus 17:11 helps us to understand how this can be done. It says, ‘The life of the flesh is in the blood.’ Blood represents life. The New Testament explains that ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]’ (Hebrews
9:22). God makes it clear that, because we are creatures of flesh and blood, the only way
to pay the penalty for our sin is if blood is shed to take away our sin.

In the Garden of Eden, God killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve as a picture of a covering for our sin. A blood sacrifice was needed because of our sin. The Israelites sacrificed animals over and over again; however, because Adam’s blood does not flow in animals, animal blood, though it could temporarily cover our sin, could never take it away. The Hebrew word translated ‘atonement’ is kaphar, which means ‘cover.’
The solution was God’s plan to send His Son, the Second Person of the triune Godhead, the Lord Jesus Christ, to become a man—a perfect man—to be a sacrifice for sin. In the person of Jesus Christ, our Creator God stepped into history (John 1:1–14) to become a physical descendant of Adam, called ‘the last Adam’ (1 Corinthians 15:45), born of a virgin. Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed His mother (Luke 1:35), He was a perfect man, one without sin—despite having been tempted in every way that we are (Hebrews
4:15)—who thus could shed His blood on a cross for our sin.

Because mankind’s first representative head—Adam—was responsible for bringing sin and death into the world, the human race can now have a new representative—the ‘last Adam’—who paid the penalty for sin. No sinner could pay for the sins of others, but this last Adam—Jesus Christ—was a perfect man. God in human flesh was able to bear the sins and sorrows of the world. The Son of God rose from the grave so that He could provide eternal life for all who believe (John 3:16). After Christ’s suffering and death, He rose from the dead, showing He had ultimate power—power over death. He can now give eternal life to anyone who receives it by faith (John 1:12, Ephesians 2:8–9). The Bible teaches us that those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe that God has
raised Him from the dead, and receive Him as Lord and Savior, will spend eternity with God (1 Corinthians 15:1–4).

The Son of God sympathizes with our sorrows. Christ’s suffering and death mean that God Himself can personally empathize with our suffering, because He has experienced it. His followers have a High Priest—Jesus—who can be ‘touched with the feeling of our infirmities. … Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need’ (Hebrews 4:15–16).

How long will this suffering and death go on?
People who complain about the suffering on this Earth need to understand God’s perspective of time. God dwells in eternity, and He is lovingly preparing His people to spend an eternity with Him. As the Apostle Paul said, ‘I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us’ (Romans 8:18).

The book of Hebrews says that Jesus Himself, ‘for the glory that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God’ (Hebrews 12:2). The present suffering—intense as it can be at times—is so insignificant, in view of eternity, that it can’t even be compared to the glory to come.
God has prepared an eternal home where there will be no more death or suffering. Those who put their trust in Christ as Savior have a wonderful hope—they can spend eternity with the Lord in a place where there will be no more death. ‘And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away’ (Revelation 21:4).


Indeed, death is really the path that opens the way to this wonderful place, called Heaven. If we lived forever, we would never have an opportunity to shed this sinful state. But God wants us to have a new body, and He wants us to dwell with Him forever. In fact, the Bible states that ‘precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints’ (Psalm
116:15). Death is ‘precious’ because sinners who have trusted Christ will enter into the presence of their Creator, in a place where righteousness dwells.

There is also a place of eternal separation from God. The Bible warns that those who reject Christ will taste a ‘second death’—eternal separation from God (Revelation 21:8).
Most of us have heard about Hell, a place of fire and torment. None other than Jesus Christ warned of this place more than He spoke of Heaven. He also made it clear that the torment of the wicked was as eternal (Greek aionios) as the life of the blessed (Matthew 25:46). God does not delight in the death of the wicked. ‘Say unto them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?’ (Ezekiel 33:11). God takes no pleasure in the afflictions and calamities of people. He is a loving, merciful God—it is our fault that man is in the current state of suffering and death.

As we face horrible suffering, such as the tragedy at the World Trade Center, let it remind us that the ultimate cause of such calamity is our sin—our rebellion against God. Our loving God, despite our sinfulness, wants us to spend eternity with Him. Christians need to stretch forth a loving, comforting arm to those who are in need of comfort and strength during times of suffering. They can find strength in the arms of a loving Creator who hates Death—the enemy that will one day be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). There is no conflict between the statements ‘God is all-powerful and loving’ and ‘the world is full of suffering and evil.’

For God to rid the world of evil would require ridding the world of us! Instead, God wants us to be saved from His wrath to come. One day, God will indeed rid the world of evil. We have two options: separate from our sins by trusting in Christ, and dwell with God forever; or cling to our sins, in which case God will grant our wish and separate us from Himself for eternity. This is why Jesus on the Day of Judgment says to evildoers, ‘Depart from me …’ (Matthew 7:23, Luke 13:27).

When we understand the origin of death and the Gospel of Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the Bible, then we can understand why this world is the way it is and how there can be a loving God in the midst of tragedy, violence, suffering and death. Which view of death do you accept? Is it one that makes God an ogre responsible for millions of years of death, disease and suffering? Or is it one that places the blame on our sin, and pictures our Creator God as a loving, merciful Savior who wept over the city of Jerusalem, who wept at the tomb of His friend Lazarus, and who weeps for all of us?

Here’s the Good News
“AiG” seeks to give glory and honor to God as Creator, and to affirm the truth of the Biblical record of the real origin and history of the world and mankind.
Part of this real history is the bad news that the rebel lion of the first man, Adam, against God’s command brought death, suffering and separation from God into this world. We see the results all around us. All of Adam’s descendants are sinful from conception (Psalm 51:5) and have themselves entered into this rebellion (sin). They therefore cannot live with a holy God, but are condemned to separation from God. The Bible says that ‘all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God’ (Romans 3:23) and that all are therefore subject to ‘ever lasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power’ (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

But the good news is that God has done something about it. ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life’ (John 3:16). Jesus Christ the Creator, though totally sinless, suffered, on behalf of mankind, the penalty of mankind’s sin, which is death and separation from God. He did this to satisfy the righteous demands of the holiness and justice of God, His Father. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice; He died on a cross, but on the third day, He rose again, conquering death, so that all who truly believe in Him, repent of their sin and trust in Him (rather than their own merit), are able to come back to God and live for eternity with their Creator. Therefore: ‘He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begot ten Son of God’ (John 3:18). The Bible also says, ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (1 John 1:9). What a wonderful Savior—and what a wonderful salvation in Christ our Creator!
This entire article was Taken from:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/media/radio/deathandsuffering.pdf

(If you want to know more of what the Bible says about how you can receive eternal life, please let me know - Ben)

Comment by Ben McCann on February 16, 2008 at 2:08pm

Ken,

I agree that our culture is out of whack, that our understanding of how we fit in the big picture and our apathy to protect the environment for the future generations is deploreable. I agree that our agricultural understanding and appreciation of how our world was designed to "heal itself" has been lost. Our true appreciation and understanding of the role of farmers is lost for the most part in our culture. Although there are still remnants in programs like FFA, 4H, and universities that focus on this like Purdue etc. However, As the Son of an environmental scientist and geologist/hydrologist who has spent his entire life in understanding and tracking and cleaning up the environment, I have spent a lot of time reflecting on those issues and the other ones that you brought up in your post.

I agree that we are consumers of resources, destroyers of good, self focused, self absorbed, selfish individuals who all we can think about is SELF. In fact you even illustrated it above in your post ... the fact that you started out talking about "we" and then morphed into "I" just goes to prove that the whole social networking and blogging, my space, you tube, ipod, culture is so focused on people expressing themselves and being heard that it propells the problem even further. The fact that you are able to point out the fact that our media loves to focus on the bad and its priorities are out of whack are no surprise to anyone. The fact that the increase in the amount of these "evil" acts are no surprise either. Everything makes sense if you have the correct worldview. Where you and I probably differ is in the way we see the world, we both have biases. I can tell by your comments that you have a "self focused evolustionist worldview that fits your ability to understand the world as "you see it". your ability to describe what is going on is limited to your own nature (which is flawed just like mine), your own intellect (which is limited just like mine), your own experiences including everything you have read, seen, listened to, and experienced (which is limited just like mine), and your own logic (which is limited, just like mine).

All of the violence and evil can be easily explained, the question is what you choose to do with the facts. Science is based on facts and evidence, I affirm and support the teaching and use of scientific methodology, and I believe this supports the biblical account of origins. (which I can assume by your mention and use of darwin that you disagree) So why all the disagreement? My question is are you looking for TRUTH and Answers or DO you believe that YOU hold them?

Starting Points
Much of the problem stems from the different starting points of biblical creationists and Darwinists. Everyone, scientist or not, must start their quests for knowledge with some unprovable axiom—some a priori belief on which they sort through experience and deduce other truths. This starting point, whatever it is, can only be accepted by faith; eventually, in each belief system, there must be some unprovable, presupposed foundation for reasoning (since an infinite regression is impossible).

Two Kinds of Science
Also causing confusion is the simple distinction some try to make between “faith” and “science.” I believe this dichotomy is in error, because some form of faith (in a religion) is required to believe in creation or evolution. Both creation and evolution make claims about an unrepeatable past that was not observed by humans. Thus both creation and evolution fall under the category of historical science. This is distinctly different from operational (observational) science, which is a methodological system governing directly observed, repeatable results (such as laboratory experiments).

What does this have to do with Violence? everything. As I mentioned before, you see the world differently than I do, I start at the Beginning, I get my answers in Genesis.

As you mentioned, we have yet another sad reminder of the fact that we live in a fallen, cursed world: news headlines (Monday) that, in the worst school shooting in U.S. history, 32 people have been murdered (and 15 injured).

CNN and the Associated Press are reporting that 32 people were killed in two incidents when a lone gunman opened fire on the Virginia Tech campus* in Blacksburg, Virginia. The shooter is believed to be among the dead. University President Charles Steger was quoted as saying that the shootings are “a tragedy of monumental proportions.”

Although this marks the worst school shooting incident in U.S. history, sadly it is not the first involving the loss of several lives. In 1999, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.

When such terrible acts occur (and sadly, random violence is occurring more frequently these days), they become the major topic of conversation on news and talk show programs. Quite often, church leaders are asked by reporters to give an explanation as to how someone can believe in a loving God when we see such tragedies happen.

Sadly, when it comes to what people would call “natural evil” (e.g., earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.), I’ve heard many Christian leaders on television make statements such as: “We don’t know why such things occur—we just have to have faith—and we just have to trust God.” When it comes to “moral evil,’’ such as a person shooting fellow human beings, I’m sure most of these leaders would say that it was because of sin. However, if really pushed, many (just like the secular world), would not take all of Genesis 1–11 as literal history.

There’s an inconsistency here in taking Genesis literally to accept sin to explain moral evil, such as the shootings at Virginia Tech, but not taking Genesis literally in their acceptance of millions of years of “natural evil” before man (e.g., death, violence, catastrophe, and extinction of animals).

At Answers in Genesis www.answersingenesis.org , they have written articles (and books) dealing with this often-asked question of how a good God can allow all this suffering and evil. And they have also posted a booklet on understanding a God of love in the face of the death and suffering around us.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/media/radio/deathandsuffering.pdf

You see, when we accept Genesis as it was meant to be taken—as literal history—then we understand that death, disease, and violence are intrusions into this world, and that they occurred after Adam was created. Paul tells us in Romans 8:19–23 that the whole of the creation is groaning because of sin.

So, it’s not God’s fault that there is death and violence in the world—it’s humanity’s fault, because we rebelled against our Creator. Certainly, the shooter at Virginia Tech has to answer for his own sin. However, we still have to recognize that we now live in a fallen world where we have just a taste of what we really asked for in Adam, when the head of the human race disobeyed God’s instruction not to eat the fruit of one particular tree. In a real sense, we are all responsible for the death and suffering we see around us.

It’s also important to understand a concept that AiG presents in the book How Could a Loving God … ? We read there:

Only the person who believes in God has a basis to make moral judgments to determine what is “good” and what is “bad.” Those who claim God does not exist have absolutely no authority upon which to call something right or wrong. If God doesn’t exist, who can objectively define what is good and what is bad? What basis could there be to make such judgments? The atheist has no basis upon which to call anything good or bad. They can talk about good and bad, and right and wrong—but it’s all relative, it’s all arbitrary. What’s “good” in one person’s mind might be completely “bad” in another’s.
Of course, from a biblical perspective, God must have morally good and just reasons as to why He allows bad things to happen. For instance, Christ’s death on the Cross was an evil event, but God allowed this for a wonderful purpose: to redeem sinful human beings.

We live in an era when public high schools and colleges have all but banned God from science classes. In these classrooms, students are taught that the whole universe, including plants and animals—and humans—arose by natural processes. Naturalism (in essence, atheism) has become the religion of the day and has become the foundation of the education system (and Western culture as a whole). The more such a philosophy permeates the culture, the more we would expect to see a sense of purposelessness and hopelessness that pervades people’s thinking. In fact, the more a culture allows the killing of the unborn, the more we will see people treating life in general as “cheap.”

I’m not at all saying that the person who committed these murders at Virginia Tech was driven by a belief in millions of years or evolution. I don’t know why this person did what he did, except the obvious: that it was a result of sin. However, when we see such death and violence, it is a reminder to us that without God’s Word (and the literal history in Genesis 1–11), people will not understand why such things happen.

There is another important lesson we need to be reminded of in the context of suffering and death in this world. In Luke 13:4–5, Jesus said: "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Jesus was reminding people that every person will one day die, and that they need to be ready! Those who were killed by this tower in Luke 13 didn’t know that when they arose that morning, it would be their day to die. The Lord Jesus, in saying “unless you repent,” was reminding everyone that they needed to be sure they were ready to face eternity.

This is the most important lesson for all of us to consider during this tragic time in American history, and to be reminded of what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:9: That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Be ready! (many excerpts taken from the AiG website at www.answersingenesis.org )

To read a comprehensive explanation that answers the Question: Why is there death and suffering? Go to:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/media/radio/deathandsuffering.pdf

There you will see some very compelling statements that will make you reflect ... I encourage you if you are looking for TRUTH and ANSWERS you will find them there.